Curse

Daesu · Aug 12, 2012, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

We are comparing EVAS vs CoP because time spent casting CoP is time not spent casting EVAS. Them still being on the same bar is irrelevant, if you aren't using it then it might as well not exist.

Casting time is even more irrelevant with 14 FC and a 1/4s casting time spell like CoP.

But you are right that if I choose to echo CoP, I would not be able to echo EVAS even though I would have multiple EVAS out running around anyway by that time. AP builds without arcane echo can already achieve multiple EVAS.

Remember in the situation of a large spread out caster group, CoP would probably be a better choice. An echoed CoP gives 100 damage + 5 degen for 10s to EACH foe in the area. Even with the longer casting time, the total damage dealt is still worth it as it is far superior to the 80 damage on a single foe through YMLAD.

Here is another scenario, even if you don't choose to echo CoP, you can echo EVAS, then use 1 CoP. Let AP recharge your skills after killing your first target, then CoP your second target for a total of 50+50+degen to each foe in the area.

Kunder · Aug 12, 2012, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Cast time is always relevant since FC does not affect aftercast. Casting CoP still means you waste a sizable amount of time not spamming more EVAS. Mes AP isn't about just having multiple EVAS, its about having 5 or 6 of them at a time. 5 assassins training enemies for over 100 auto attack DPS is what you are looking for.

Again, damage comparison:

CoP: 50 damage + 10 DPS per target for 10s.

EVAS: ~600 damage total

CoP against 4 enemies deals 600 damage. So you need to hit 5 enemies with CoP to beat EVAS. This isn't even including YMLAD. And this ignores the additional benefit of EVAS drawing fire, spiking a single target better, YMLAD's knockdown, and not needing to waste time setting up a hex for CoP. And pity you if you hit the degen cap.

CoP never stacks degen; You are at a max of -5 degen no matter what you do. This means that successive CoPs have vastly less damage.

Basically if you want to degen enemies to death then bring it on a Hero, not your AP build.

Daesu · Aug 12, 2012, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Cast time is always relevant since FC does not affect aftercast. Casting CoP still means you waste a sizable amount of time not spamming more EVAS. Mes AP isn't about just having multiple EVAS, its about having 5 or 6 of them at a time. 5 assassins training enemies for over 100 auto attack DPS is what you are looking for.

Again, damage comparison:

CoP: 50 damage + 10 DPS per target for 10s.

EVAS: ~600 damage total

CoP against 4 enemies deals 600 damage. So you need to hit 5 enemies with CoP to beat EVAS. This isn't even including YMLAD. And this ignores the additional benefit of EVAS drawing fire, spiking a single target better, YMLAD's knockdown, and not needing to waste time setting up a hex for CoP. And pity you if you hit the degen cap.

CoP never stacks degen; You are at a max of -5 degen no matter what you do. This means that successive CoPs have vastly less damage.

Basically if you want to degen enemies to death then bring it on a Hero, not your AP build.

Having 5 targets in the area is not uncommon and I can have already up to 4 EVAS running around without echo.

Alternatively, I can also choose to echo EVAS, instead and just use CoP damage with 5 targets to compete with your YMLAD with 1 target, so I would have 5 * (50+10*10) = 750 damage total from just CoP vs 80 damage from YMLAD. Even if I waste a full 3s setting up CoP (very conservative) and I don't count the degen damage at all, I still have greater DPS than YMLAD.

Sebiale · Aug 12, 2012, 06:14 AM // 06:14

This is what I've been using, and it seems to be working well.

Mind Wrack isn't the greatest synergy, but I like it's long duration, and it does give a little bit more damage on my main target when it's followed by CoP and Unnatural Signet, both AoEs that I can use several times thanks to AP and Wrack's long duration. I still have YMLAD and the assassin's for more directed damage.
The Tap is for when I miss on AP, or I spam a little too much.

Cuilan · Aug 12, 2012, 04:26 PM // 16:26

I would replace Energy Tap with Drain Delusions. Faster activation and it still triggers MW.

WarcryOfTruth · Aug 12, 2012, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Cast time is always relevant since FC does not affect aftercast. Casting CoP still means you waste a sizable amount of time not spamming more EVAS. Mes AP isn't about just having multiple EVAS, its about having 5 or 6 of them at a time. 5 assassins training enemies for over 100 auto attack DPS is what you are looking for.

Again, damage comparison:

CoP: 50 damage + 10 DPS per target for 10s.

EVAS: ~600 damage total

CoP against 4 enemies deals 600 damage. So you need to hit 5 enemies with CoP to beat EVAS. This isn't even including YMLAD. And this ignores the additional benefit of EVAS drawing fire, spiking a single target better, YMLAD's knockdown, and not needing to waste time setting up a hex for CoP. And pity you if you hit the degen cap.

CoP never stacks degen; You are at a max of -5 degen no matter what you do. This means that successive CoPs have vastly less damage.

Basically if you want to degen enemies to death then bring it on a Hero, not your AP build.

Is this guy really arguing that Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support is better than Cry of Pain? Against one foe, I'll maybe take your argument into consideration, but, it's silly to even consider it in any other circumstance

Xenomortis · Aug 12, 2012, 09:07 PM // 21:07

In almost all circumstances in PvE, EVAS is much better than CoP in an AP build.

Sebiale · Aug 12, 2012, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I would replace Energy Tap with Drain Delusions. Faster activation and it still triggers MW.

Except that would also remove MW--defeating its purpose of letting me use CoP and Unnatural Signet almost at will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

In almost all circumstances in PvE, EVAS is much better than CoP in an AP build.

I just took both.

Premium Unleaded · Aug 13, 2012, 12:15 AM // 00:15

wrack > evas/cop > sig > drain

?

Daesu · Aug 13, 2012, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebiale

I just took both.

Same here, I love EVAS and CoP.

Sebiale · Aug 13, 2012, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

wrack > evas/cop > sig > drain

?

Wrack lasts ~30 seconds at my attribute levels, so I almost never need to re-apply it to keep my use of CoP.

Krazy Kat · Aug 13, 2012, 04:50 AM // 04:50

My favorite Mesmer AP caller that I have been using for months.

Assassin's Promise
"You Move Like a Dwarf!"
Waste Not, Want Not
"Finish Him!"
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Unnatural Signet
Energy Burn
Resurrection Signet
12 Deadly Arts, 9+1+3 Domination Magic, 7+1 Inspiration Magic, 6+1 Fast Casting

Use Assassin's Promise followed by YMLAD and Waste Not, Want Not. You will almost always get energy back from Waste Not, Want Not due to the enemies being knocked down. Then I usually use Unnatural Signet (since it's free) followed by Finish Him.

You may replace Energy Burn or Resurrection Signet for skills like Power Spike, Overload (cover hex) and Spiritual Pain.

[AP Mesmer Caller;OQdUAMROOPTLQ2kLfxk7imOqACA]

Premium Unleaded · Aug 13, 2012, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebiale

Wrack lasts ~30 seconds at my attribute levels, so I almost never need to re-apply it to keep my use of CoP.

...And? I'm just saying tap is a complete waste of a slot given what other options are available and for what you have to invest in inspiration.

Sebiale · Aug 13, 2012, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

...And? I'm just saying tap is a complete waste of a slot given what other options are available and for what you have to invest in inspiration.

Drain Delusions removes Wrack, so I'd have to reapply it to use CoP, and at level 8 both Drain and Tap give a net gain of 7 energy.
WNWN only has a net gain of 6 energy.
I just don't see a superior benefit.

Premium Unleaded · Aug 13, 2012, 09:36 PM // 21:36

You're looking to justify energy tap being there in the first place on the basis of missing AP proc, which is questionable in itself.
So if AP is not triggered, then why is something that takes ~1.5s cast and recharges in 20s more useful than a <1/4s cast ~8s recharge?

Sebiale · Aug 13, 2012, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

You're looking to justify energy tap being there in the first place on the basis of missing AP proc, which is questionable in itself.
So if AP is not triggered, then why is something that takes ~1.5s cast and recharges in 20s more useful than a <1/4s cast ~8s recharge?

Good point, I've also noticed that Drain Delusions scales better.
My only hangup is that Drain is still pretty conditional. Since it requires MW to function, its net gain (even if I increase Insp. to 10) is only 6 energy.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krazy Kat

My favorite Mesmer AP caller that I have been using for months.

Assassin's Promise
"You Move Like a Dwarf!"
Waste Not, Want Not
"Finish Him!"
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Unnatural Signet
Energy Burn
Resurrection Signet
12 Deadly Arts, 9+1+3 Domination Magic, 7+1 Inspiration Magic, 6+1 Fast Casting

Use Assassin's Promise followed by YMLAD and Waste Not, Want Not. You will almost always get energy back from Waste Not, Want Not due to the enemies being knocked down. Then I usually use Unnatural Signet (since it's free) followed by Finish Him.

You may replace Energy Burn or Resurrection Signet for skills like Power Spike, Overload (cover hex) and Spiritual Pain.

[AP Mesmer Caller;OQdUAMROOPTLQ2kLfxk7imOqACA]

Why not Arcane Echo? And why only 4 attribute upgrades?